nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
|
Post by nat on Jan 27, 2010 14:57:37 GMT -5
It seems that of the two, it was Ginger who really got into the suicide thing. And it made me wonder, what would make a really young girl get so caught up in death like she was? Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 27, 2010 16:50:38 GMT -5
Interesting question. Strange thing about Ginger and Brigitte is that they don't seem to be "culturally" goth. It doesn't seem to have been transmitted to them through music, art, the media, or the Internet. No, they seem to have developed their death fixation in isolation from all of that. The blood oath/suicide pact was sworn when they were eight. Nothing unusual about that. I used to think there was abuse, but I don't think so anymore. I believe it was probably a death of a friend or of a grandmother at 8 years old that turned Ginger so morbid and depressed. Of course, it might have been something less earth-shaking. Maybe she was just a romantic, and the idea of the dull world in Bailey Downs was just too dismal for her. As it begins, it's coming time to pay the reaper. Ginger is about to turn 16. Think about it. The sisters would have to decide that their oath was make-believe, or they would make it serious by committing suicide, or running away. It's probably what prompted Brigitte's remark which led to that cool slide show. So, the sisters were already reaching a turning point. I do think Ginger had the heart of an artist.
|
|
nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
|
Post by nat on Jan 27, 2010 18:07:01 GMT -5
Makes sense. I do like the notion of abuse though. (well, you get what I mean) Their mom definitely had something off about her. Most parents don't announce their daughter's period at the dinner table. (actually, my mom did that. But it was different) But I can definitely see her doing it for the sake of the arts.
And I also felt that they were into their own sort of culture. A bizarre misanthropy/emo subculture.
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 27, 2010 19:27:06 GMT -5
Unlike many movies aimed at teens, this one gives no indication about what music might have influenced the sisters.
You're right about that. The sisters had isolated themselves as much as they were isolated by others. That's why this movie isn't really too comparable to "Carrie." The menstruation and maturity angle is there, but the two movies go in completely different directions with it.
The blood oath bonded them to each other, but also united them against everybody else. That Search & Destroy game showed it. They formed their own little culture, their own little clique within it.
About the Mom: I think Pam just tried too hard to be friend and a parent. She did this to the point where she was weird.
Till right now, I had thought of Brigitte as being the smartest one, and definitely, she could think on her feet, but Ginger had observations that you just don't expect from a fifteen-year-old. ("I'm just a lay . . . " "Nobody thinks chicks do this . . . ") My conclusion: Ginger was well-read and read far above her grade for a long time. She probably also had a choice of reading that added to her cynicism and distrust. Maybe she looked at the world through books, and was appalled.
However, I notice they don't have any books in their room!
|
|
nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
|
Post by nat on Jan 27, 2010 19:38:29 GMT -5
Books don't prove peoples intelligence.
Here's a half baked thought...
There are two types of people. Readers and Writers.
Pretty sure there's a deep thought somewhere in there.
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 27, 2010 19:56:10 GMT -5
No, they don't. But the ideas they derive from books do. So would reading above your grade. The statements Ginger makes don't sound to be in the form anybody would write. They also sounded subversive. Like ideas that would get you isolated in high school.
I think rather than growing up knowing what the grown-up world was like, Ginger would have rather stayed in childhood with Brigitte.
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 27, 2010 22:02:59 GMT -5
Afterthought:
Maybe Ginger's bitterness was because of abuse. But Henry doesn't project any creepiness. I honestly think Pamela would leave him if there were any hint of that. I mean you could criticize Pamela in other ways, but look at what she was ready to do to protect her children.
So, if there was abuse, it came from somewhere else. Something really embittered Ginger.
There are readers and there are writers. For my sake, I hope there are always more readers, or more viewers.
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 29, 2010 14:13:25 GMT -5
Just thought of something. If you notice in GS after the slide show is played and it gets applause, Ginger looks absolutely starstruck.
Ginger wanted popularity. She just wanted it on her terms. She really, really saw that slide show as her artistic expression. I think she held it against Mr. Wayne that he panned it so badly.
The fact about Ginger is, sadly, I don't think there's really anything that wrong with her. The only tragic flaw that she might have had was a romantic's idea of devotion. I'm turning 16, I'm going to kill myself and, you, Brigitte have to go with me.
|
|
|
Post by epiklow on Jan 29, 2010 17:14:49 GMT -5
Yeah. That's so true.
Maybe (and just maybe) the whole suicide idea was to see if anyone really cared? Brigitte was fine with being on the outside. I think that's why she was the one who wasn't really into the plan.
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 29, 2010 18:26:28 GMT -5
Yeah. That's so true. Maybe (and just maybe) the whole suicide idea was to see if anyone really cared? Brigitte was fine with being on the outside. I think that's why she was the one who wasn't really into the plan. I really think there's a different answer than "to see who cared." They swore the suicide pact when they were eight. For an eight-year-old, sixteen is like, another lifetime away-- in other words, forever. So, they swore themselves together for life and death. As the movie began, the oath was becoming a topic of conversation between them because, while in childhood it affirmed their friendship, now it actually meant action if it was ever real. Ginger was about to turn 16. Ginger was probably depressed about this, knowing her childhood was, once and for all, over. Neither girl knew what form their bond would take in adulthood, nor if it could survive at all despite what they desired, and both were afraid to find out. Did you notice that Ginger got tears in her eyes when she said, "We both swore we would go together one way or another?" They had a real fear of losing the bond between them. If Ginger would have attempted suicide, I think it would have been for or with Brigitte. I don't think it would have been for attention. If anything, the slide show was meant to boast that they did not fear death. THAT was for attention. In all actuality, though, they did. The way Ginger fought and screamed when she was attacked by the BoBD would tell you that her when confronted with real death, she was anything but cavalier. In fact, when confronted with life or death situations, neither of them were blase about it. It was totally in contrast with the slide show. But the movie seems to say that maturing means a breaking of bonds. I don't think Brigitte was fine being on the outside, I just think she was shy, awkward and self-conscious. This means she felt better on the outside, but she wasn't really fine either way.
|
|
|
Post by Zack Flak on Jan 30, 2010 14:33:12 GMT -5
Very good points there, Lordhowl.
I agree that Ginger wanted popularity. I think Brigitte was very shy, but perhaps didn't really want that to change. Ginger, on the other hand, seemed to have some latent desire to be more involved with other people, as evidenced by her quick acceptance of her new-found popularity, post-change. Brigitte seemed happier keeping people at a distance, I think.
Some people point out Brigitte's seemingly jealous reaction to the attention payed to Ginger garnered by their slideshow as a sign that she wanted popularity, but I think it was less a reaction of jealousy than one of fear that she was going to lose Ginger to the others.
So, even though it was Ginger that was so insistent that the pact not be broken, it would have been for her actions that it was. She was maturing faster and perhaps it was a fear of her own secret desires to be like the others that made her want to end it before she became the monster she knew she would be. Not a werewolf, or even a menstruating woman, but simply a person that wants what up to that time she thought she could live without: Human contact aside from that of her sister.
I suppose I am not saying anything new here, but my focus is on the fact that she knew full well that even without the physicality associated with growing up, she had a desire to break away that scared her, one that was around long before her hitting puberty. When she broke that little girl's nose, she may have been fearing that Brigitte would leave her because deep down she felt a need to leave and she feared that Brigitte felt it too.
I like what you said about Ginger's artistic outlet. Do you think that the situation in Mr. Wayne's office was just an excuse for revenge over his reaction to her art?
Art from the shy is like a passive/aggressive approach to life. I have always been very shy myself, yet I put myself out there with very personal songs all the time. It's like forcing one's self to face fears, except, for me at least, it's not even a choice. Art is the ultimate catharsis for the shy, even if the consequences of people's perceptions to it could be devastating. A separation from the artist to the audience through the art feels safer in many ways. Through art, you can say what you cannot say. You know?
As for the readers and writers, I am in the latter camp. I write many lyrics all the time and have a big stack of books that take me forever to get through. lol
|
|
Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
2nd in command
Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
Posts: 1,505
|
Post by Boehlke on Jan 30, 2010 17:59:34 GMT -5
Why Ginger is the way she is. I have to say it was predetermined, they let the curse continue. So in order to let the curse go its way for all of their life times, certain standards must be met. Call it supernatural, call it destiny.
Overall I agree with Zack.
|
|
|
Post by Zack Flak on Jan 30, 2010 18:02:26 GMT -5
Perhaps the biggest question is: Would they have gone through with their plans had the attack never happened?
|
|
Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
2nd in command
Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
Posts: 1,505
|
Post by Boehlke on Jan 30, 2010 18:10:55 GMT -5
I would say yes. It is their destiny. That would be the only way to start the cycle anew.
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 30, 2010 19:49:09 GMT -5
Why Ginger is the way she is. I have to say it was predetermined, they let the curse continue. So in order to let the curse go its way for all of their life times, certain standards must be met. Call it supernatural, call it destiny. Overall I agree with Zack. I'm glad to meet you Boehlke, and I'm sorry to disagree with you here, because I'm thinking that any answer that makes Ginger boring is entirely wrong. Predestination is boring. Problem with citing the prequel as showing she is predetermined is that that the ending of it was a huge "fuck you" to predetermination. And predetermination is lame. I'll give you a short allegory to show why. A writer plans out his plot. At the midpoint, the man kills his wife. Now, in literal terms, that character is predestined to stab his wife. But if the writer just writes that the man did it because he made him, nobody would want to read that story. The writer has to think of all kinds of ways to get that man into the mood and into the position to stab his wife. The interesting thing about Ginger she wasn't an automaton. Anything but. I'm thinking However, that's all beside the point compared with this: Ginger Snaps was never made with a sequel in mind. It was neither written nor directed for any. With that in mind, it's perfectly fair to consider the movie and characters totally without its sprequels. What was in GS1 (and the deleted scenes and previous drafts) was all the writer and director and all the gods of its universe knew and its viewers knew at the time. So, I feel free to consider it with or without the sprequels. Especially in areas where the sprequels simply ruin it.
|
|
Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
2nd in command
Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
Posts: 1,505
|
Post by Boehlke on Jan 30, 2010 20:13:07 GMT -5
Why Ginger is the way she is. I have to say it was predetermined, they let the curse continue. So in order to let the curse go its way for all of their life times, certain standards must be met. Call it supernatural, call it destiny. Overall I agree with Zack. I'm glad to meet you Boehlke, and I'm sorry to disagree with you here, because I'm thinking that any answer that makes Ginger boring is entirely wrong. Predestination is boring. And I am glad to meet you too. However, I am not sorry that you disagree with me I revere your disagreement! And I disagree with you that predestination is boring. Problem with citing the prequel as showing she is predetermined is that that the ending of it was a huge "fuck you" to predetermination. This is where I disagree, I don't find it a big "fuck you". You just have not looked far enough down the lane. When the showdown with destiny is at hand, things get interesting, then the time where you can give the "Big Fuck You" to destiny and predetermination comes, and you can go your own way. And predetermination is lame. I'll give you a short allegory to show why. A writer plans out his plot. At the midpoint, the man kills his wife. Now, in literal terms, that character is predestined to stab his wife. But if the writer just writes that the man did it because he made him, nobody would want to read that story. The writer has to think of all kinds of ways to get that man into the mood and into the position to stab his wife. The interesting thing about Ginger she wasn't an automaton. Anything but. I'm thinking Of course, I agree, that would just suck. But if the protagonist learns that this is what he will do, he has a chance to change his destiny, no? That is what I mean. However, that's all beside the point compared with this: Ginger Snaps was never made with a sequel in mind. It was neither written nor directed for any. With that in mind, it's perfectly fair to consider the movie and characters totally without its sprequels. What was in GS1 (and the deleted scenes and previous drafts) was all the writer and director and all the gods of its universe knew and its viewers knew at the time. This is all true, I still think the writer could have found another route. I am not complaining, mind you; I find the route they did take fascinating. So, I feel free to consider it with or without the sprequels. Especially in areas where the sprequels simply ruin it. Agreed.
|
|
nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
|
Post by nat on Jan 30, 2010 20:18:34 GMT -5
I fear this thread has gone well-above my smartness level. I'll just nod and agree with you all.
|
|
Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
2nd in command
Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
Posts: 1,505
|
Post by Boehlke on Jan 30, 2010 20:25:00 GMT -5
I fear this thread has gone well-above my smartness level. I'll just nod and agree with you all. What? Nooo. Come on! I'm sure you have some thoughts on the matter?
|
|
|
Post by lordhowl on Jan 30, 2010 21:22:15 GMT -5
Very good points there, Lordhowl. I agree that Ginger wanted popularity. I think Brigitte was very shy, but perhaps didn't really want that to change. Ginger, on the other hand, seemed to have some latent desire to be more involved with other people, as evidenced by her quick acceptance of her new-found popularity, post-change. Brigitte seemed happier keeping people at a distance, I think. I think you're right on this first point. Brigitte was a lot more self-contained than Ginger. She could have done without popularity and with one or two close friends. I think they read too much to read into that. For one thing, Ginger wasn't looking at Brigitte when her eyes went starstruck. Brigitte wasn't responding to her. The deleted scene immediately after shows that Brigitte felt ashamed because the guys had seen the slide show sexually. She took a picture of her face to go on the "Wall of Shame."[/quote] Interesting. I never wondered if Ginger was destined to become a "monster" in the social sense. Well, I'm a little sorry that you cited this, because this would have been the one part of the deleted scenes that I really thought should have never been in the movie. It wasn't in the original script, and it came in with John Fawcett's extensive rewrite of that party scene. Fawcett was inspired in introducing more conflict between the sisters, but with those lines, he went too far. They would have damaged the film. Why? Brigitte didn't show the resentment or the fear of Ginger's temper that would have supported episodes like that in their past. In the scene with Trina, where Ginger accuses Brigitte of choosing Sam over her, Brigitte answers "No, this isn't you." That isn't something Brigitte would say when she knows it IS Ginger. If anything, the werewolfism had inflamed Ginger's latent jealousy and was trying to turn it toward violence. So, I'm sorry. That incident between them never happened. Not everything in the deleted scenes does. No, no, I'm just certain that she hated him. I think the werewolfism at that point was bending all of her emotions toward violence. By that time, her solution to any emotional conflict was biting, ripping, drawing blood, and killing. It says something about their friendship that Brigitte was able to spend hours in that office with Ginger-- and survive. [/quote] I agree. I'm an artist, a writer, just trying to survive and start my career.
|
|
nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
|
Post by nat on Jan 30, 2010 21:29:52 GMT -5
I really don't know. I alway's felt that the girls were not so much mature, but unburdened by an over-abundance of hormones. If they were more mature they'd probably have realized they didn't really want to die.
Just a thought.
|
|