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Post by epiklow on Oct 7, 2010 15:47:03 GMT -5
WARNING: Sorry to depress you all.
But;
Ever since I was little, I've been confused about this -- Life. I don't understand (and I know almost everyone doesn't) what the point is to all of this.
We go through everyday life to... go to school... to learn... to find a job... to make money... possibly meet someone... have a family... repopulate, even though there's already billions of people... then we might do one really great thing... and then die.
I don't want to be a downer, but I really don't understand. We're all going to die, I don't see how all the stuff we do between birth and death is relevant. If I died tomorrow -- were these past seventeen years a waste? Cause', we don't even know where we're going after this. What if all of this really doesn't matter?
I'm just so frustrated, and for the past week I keep thinking about these things. I've gone through so much schooling and family issues, that I hope in the end, this all means something. Because right now, it doesn't feel like that at all.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Oct 7, 2010 16:23:21 GMT -5
The point of life is for you to find reason. You live so you can learn and experience things. And whether theres more life after this, it really doesn't matter. Make the most of this one cus it could be the only chance you get. But in the end, these things only mean something if you got something from it.
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Post by lordhowl on Oct 7, 2010 20:03:59 GMT -5
WARNING: Sorry to depress you all. But; Ever since I was little, I've been confused about this -- Life. I don't understand (and I know almost everyone doesn't) what the point is to all of this. We go through everyday life to... go to school... to learn... to find a job... to make money... possibly meet someone... have a family... repopulate, even though there's already billions of people... then we might do one really great thing... and then die. I don't want to be a downer, but I really don't understand. We're all going to die, I don't see how all the stuff we do between birth and death is relevant. If I died tomorrow -- were these past seventeen years a waste? Cause', we don't even know where we're going after this. What if all of this really doesn't matter? I'm just so frustrated, and for the past week I keep thinking about these things. I've gone through so much schooling and family issues, that I hope in the end, this all means something. Because right now, it doesn't feel like that at all. Not depressing. I'm sorry to say Epiklow, there is no easy, quick or totally known answer, and people have asked that for thousands of years. (See Monty Python: The Meaning of Life). This universe is far larger, and far smaller than previous generations even imagined. Given what's known just in summary, there has never been a human being who has had enough information to say what the overall reason for it is. So, speaking of what's the answer in the universal sense, there is no answer. Unfortunately, there has never been any evidence for a spiritual existence. I know saying that is controversial. Many people want to hold on to it. Religious books like the Bible make claims that do not stand up to even immediate scrutiny. However, the existence of Dark Matter is maybe suggestive, I don't suggest you get your hopes up. So far whatever we've found out about this universe has been contrary to our historical guesses. And why wouldn't it be? There's an infinite amount of wrong guesses but few right ones. In fact, for religion, this is not at all the universe the God in the Bible is depicted as having created. Also, he does not have any knowledge about it himself. Therefore, he doesn't exist. Same with the God in the Koran. This is not the universe either of those Gods would have created. Fact is, this does not look like a universe anything with a mind would have created. That's a discussion all its own that I'm not going to get in to. So, I'll just declare that here. So you can presume that there's no overall good authority to which you can present your life and compare what your doing to the plan it has and from there gauge your meaning. Many people can't handle the absence of that. Maybe what you do between birth and death isn't relevant, but your mind will insert relevance into anyway. It must. It's the way our minds function. Whether it does it by getting you religion, making you CEO or making you a great author, a mathematician, or a philosopher, it will do it. I realize that doesn't answer the question, but it does ask the important question underlying it: what is relevance in this case? Relevance is a totally relational quality, nothing is relevant without something else. So, what's missing there is something to relate everything between life and death to. You might try to relate it to everything outside life and death, but then you're back to religious conjectures, which denies the evidentiary truth that there's most likely nothing outside of it and that what's claimed about it is most likely always claimed by fraud. Sorry to say, Epiklow, what we do does not matter in the way you most desire. Human beings are mortal and absolutely everything that we create is mortal. I'm afraid the most lasting thing any living thing appears to do is . . . fossilize, and that matters really only because other living things pick up the fossils and wonder at it. The personal need for meaning evaporates as soon as you die-- because it's a concept for the living. After death it's up to other living human beings who might find meaning in your life . You'll have neither consciousness or existence at that point. What about beforehand? You go through life hoping to create memories that you can carry with you, that you can happily replay. So, anything at any moment that makes you happy, or gives you pride, or excites you, does something for somebody you love, or that creates love . . . there are a lot of things. And if you can't find meaning in that, the wonder of the human mind is that it can create other worlds, just as it perceives the universe and from it "creates" a world. That in itself might be a source of happiness and pride. Death is actually harder than living. Oh, not death itself. Getting there is hard and painful, death itself, of course, is easy and sounds lazy. But if there's no meaning in living, there's no meaning in dying as well. So, I hope this isn't a hint that you're contemplating suicide, because that way you'll solve nothing of the problem that drives you toward it. If you're going to eventually die anyway, life, at least, holds possibilities. The only possible surprise in death is an afterlife, but since you're going to see an afterlife anyway after death, and since life is surprising too, you might as well stay. I'm sorry if this is so incomplete, but anybody living is either struggling with or avoiding this question. I might suggest Zen meditation and a study of philosophy.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Oct 8, 2010 1:40:22 GMT -5
That's a depressing answer.
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Post by lordhowl on Oct 8, 2010 9:37:52 GMT -5
That's a depressing answer. ? Read again. It's not simple.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Oct 8, 2010 10:13:38 GMT -5
The idea that everything is meaningless and nothing matters just doesn't appeal to me. I like the idea that what we do is important and regardless of whether it really does or doesn't make a difference.
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Post by lordhowl on Oct 8, 2010 10:59:39 GMT -5
The idea that everything is meaningless and nothing matters just doesn't appeal to me. I like the idea that what we do is important and regardless of whether it really does or doesn't make a difference. That's not exactly what I said. Even so, what says the universe has to appeal to YOU? Nothing. There's nothing about existence that says it's around to appeal to any of us. In fact, all indications are that it's indifferent. You might not like the answer, but if your reason for rejecting it is that it doesn't appeal to you, then you had the answer before you asked the question. Or rather, the question is moot; you didn't try to answer it. Oh, afterthought: This is not to say that you cannot make a world with meaning and try to live in it. In fact, that's exactly what I recommended. However, that would be your world and not existence (or the universe), and you would be imposing your meaning on it. Maybe part of the illusion necessary to this would be to say to yourself that it all has meaning already outside of you, but that would actually be a necessary lie to creating the world. And those are also sold by cults, religions and charlatans, but if it's the only way you get up in the morning or dream at night . . . I, too, would have liked to give the immediate, simple, happy answer, but that is not the truthful one, nor do I think it would have satisfied her. I think that's the answer most anyone would give. That answer is sold to people by cults, religions and charlatans and its always snake oil with different packaging and marketing.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Oct 8, 2010 11:52:59 GMT -5
I didnt say the universe had to appeal to me, I said the idea that it's meaningless doesn't appeal to me. At the end of the day nobody knows what the point of life is, and it's ignorant to pass it off as meaningless. I believe that the birth of a child means something, and the same for when anyone dies. Things like emotion, ideas, and learning make life meaningful to me. Those make a difference and despite the fact that it doesn't make a difference to everyone doesn't change the fact that it can make a difference to one person.
As for your afterthought: Saying that the things people get out of life are an illusion and that essentially we trick ourselves into a false sense of belonging, is not only just as bad as living a meaningless existence, it's worse. If you allow yourself to believe that it puts you in the mindset that your just another cog in the machine and you have no influence on anything and therefore your actions are consequenceless. Personal responsibility is extremely important. Going through life with the belief that you can make a difference leads to more self fulfillment through personal awareness and consciousness. It's the basic fundamentals of existentialism. What your talking about is existential nihilism and while it may have some validity to it, I highly doubt that it's the sort of belief to be posing on someone looking for meaning in life.
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Post by lordhowl on Oct 8, 2010 15:35:46 GMT -5
I didnt say the universe had to appeal to me, I said the idea that it's meaningless doesn't appeal to me. At the end of the day nobody knows what the point of life is, and it's ignorant to pass it off as meaningless. No, it's not ignorant. That's the best conclusion I can come up with on the weight of the evidence. Now, despite the evidence you might say that there's still a chance it might be meaningful. I acknowledge that, yes, that is the case it might be. However, to resort to analogy, with the same amount of money on the line and to be won, you can't justify betting on the forty percent chance rather than the sixty percent one. Which bet would be smarter, even if for some emotional reason you don't like the sixty percent bet doesn't mean it's equal to the forty percent one? I'm just sayin'. I believe that the birth of a child means something, and the same for when anyone dies. Things like emotion, ideas, and learning make life meaningful to me. Those make a difference and despite the fact that it doesn't make a difference to everyone doesn't change the fact that it can make a difference to one person. Of course, it means something, it just doesn't mean anything in the eternal, the mega-scale or immortal sense, but it means something to me and enough people. It means a huge amount. We seem to agree. And it's not like anyone can make it mean less to them. As for your afterthought: Saying that the things people get out of life are an illusion and that essentially we trick ourselves into a false sense of belonging, is not only just as bad as living a meaningless existence, it's worse. Worse, and factual. We practically have it hardwired into us to do it, and to be convinced that we're utterly right when we do, to bend facts and outright lie to do it, and to convince ourselves all along that we're not doing any of that. You're doing it now. Besides, if our minds do this unconsciously, as they apparently do, it makes not one wit of difference if you say it's better or worse. Is it better or worse if a cat eats meat? To be totally truthful, you might say, it nauseates you when you think about it, but it's not better or worse. And if you feel bad about it now, I wouldn't worry. You're mind will find a way to make you feel right and better about it. If you allow yourself to believe that it puts you in the mindset that your just another cog in the machine and you have no influence on anything and therefore your actions are consequenceless. Personal responsibility is extremely important. Going through life with the belief that you can make a difference leads to more self fulfillment through personal awareness and consciousness. But now you're making utilitarian arguments against facts. Such as, you tell me it must work otherwise you can't justify personal responsibility. Whereas the universe still says, that's your problem. So, instead of letting that get in the way of your concept of personal responsibility, you create a world, based on the universe, where there is eternal, continual meaning, and you make me the enemy in doing it, the one that throws wrench into the world that you must have because otherwise the moral system you've adopted-- might not work so smoothly. Now to deal with your argument, you needn't have any fear, though you probably still will. It does not follow from what I said that actions have no consequences. That's simply your moral fear. If anything, my actions have more consequences than they would. Morality is basically a bio-social trait. I have no religion, I still have moral restraints and moral imperatives. If I commit, say, a murder, I will lose decades of my only life to misery, if not lose my very life. None of that is going to substantially change if we can't make meaning eternal, everlasting and massive. Let's not exaggerate meaning, sacrificing facts so we can make sure there's no potential threat to our moral code. And of course, you can make a difference, just not any eternal, huge or everlasting one. And if that discourages you, maybe you shouldn't think about it. It's quite likely the human mind isn't adapted to think in those terms, which is why we usually don't. It's the basic fundamentals of existentialism. What your talking about is existential nihilism and while it may have some validity to it, I highly doubt that it's the sort of belief to be posing on someone looking for meaning in life. And, you'd be wrong in every count here. I like how you say "You might be right, sort of, but you're not useful, so get lost." There are several differences between what I say and nihilism, existential or not. A nihilist would never posit the cognitive creation of derivative worlds as an important mental process to dealing with existence. We do it consciously and unconsciously. Our minds are evolved to do just that. A nihilist would never concede to dealing with the meaning provided by the derivative world, that the universe itself does not provide meaning. Nor the fact, that as a part of the universe, us providing the meaning is the universe providing it. Nor would a nihilist award such meanings as being . . . meaningful. Nor have you seemed to catch on to the fact that we do this unconsciously as well as consciously. It's a mental function. It's not like we have a choice about it. I say all this in a lucid moment.
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Post by †Wicky Wicked† on Oct 9, 2010 9:48:35 GMT -5
WARNING: Sorry to depress you all. But; Ever since I was little, I've been confused about this -- Life. I don't understand (and I know almost everyone doesn't) what the point is to all of this. We go through everyday life to... go to school... to learn... to find a job... to make money... possibly meet someone... have a family... repopulate, even though there's already billions of people... then we might do one really great thing... and then die. I don't want to be a downer, but I really don't understand. We're all going to die, I don't see how all the stuff we do between birth and death is relevant. If I died tomorrow -- were these past seventeen years a waste? Cause', we don't even know where we're going after this. What if all of this really doesn't matter? I'm just so frustrated, and for the past week I keep thinking about these things. I've gone through so much schooling and family issues, that I hope in the end, this all means something. Because right now, it doesn't feel like that at all. I've asked myself this a lot too epiklow. Usually I can't find an answer and I don't believe in life after death, I'm really not optimistic. But I also have the idea that if I would die by tomorrow, so what? What will the world miss if I would be gone? Depressing I know but well I can't think of any logical answer of what my purpose of living would be. Plus when I was depressed a few years back I also thought what it would be like if you're not here anymore ..... but well to me now family and friends are important and that's my reason for living.
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Post by epiklow on Oct 9, 2010 20:45:59 GMT -5
You all have good points. And don't worry, I'm not contemplating suicide or anything. This all just gets annoying when I randomly start thinking about it. I'm too afraid to die, but I'm frustrated with life.
It's just, there has to be SOME reason that we are all here. SOME reason why we meet the people we do, grow up with the family we have, and look the way we look.
And I hate when people try to have conversations like this, and the person who started it is called crazy -__- I think if we spent more time trying to figure out how we got here, we'd figure something out. Time is wasted on making money and worrying about what other people think of us... *sigh*
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1ginger3
Just Bit
"When you close your eyes, is it hell you see?"
Posts: 68
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Post by 1ginger3 on Oct 10, 2010 9:51:58 GMT -5
Really interesting question. I think sometime in life everybody deliberates about that question. I remember a few moments in my life. At first sight life is really just being born and then, somewhen, we die.
I think life is what you make out of it. I think the word "self-fulfillment" is kinda important here. You should give your life a reason, set yourself aims, which you want to realize. "Existing" is not the same as "living". When you're old, you can look back at your life and tell your grandchildren or somebody else what you achieved in life. And I think what you'll tell them will be your reasons. I know that sounds old-fashioned, it's only an example ^^
I dunno why we meet the people we meet. Maybe they're somewhen important for us and can help or support us or we can or should help them. We can't choose our family but we choose our friends. And we only want to be friends with people we like so there has to be a sense in that, too.
Somebody started with religion: I think this is why so many people want to believe, doesn't matter which religion or sect they belong to. That's their sense of being: to pray to someone, who they think will lead their life as it should be, everything unpleasant is a test of the one they pray to, which they have to pass to proof their strenght. And when they die, they'll come to a nice place, where everything is better than before.
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