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Post by lordhowl on Jan 31, 2010 0:43:00 GMT -5
I really don't know. I alway's felt that the girls were not so much mature, but unburdened by an over-abundance of hormones. If they were more mature they'd probably have realized they didn't really want to die. Just a thought. True, Nat, but they would have still been at a crisis. Say they reach 16 and they don't run away or commit suicide. How do they view the last eight years of their friendship after that? If they ignored the oath, how could they view it as anything but false afterward? Would they ever manage to take their friendship seriously again, or ever bring that feeling of closeness back, considering all the pressures they were already feeling? The problem is, they really doubted they could. Brigitte had a more mature idea of devotion, and it might have saved their bond into adulthood, but she wasn't confident enough about it. Whereas Ginger's solution was just to stick to the oath and to take it dead seriously. They didn't really want to die, Nat. When Ginger says "We swore we'd go together one way or another," she has tears in her eyes, but to break their bond was almost as painful to them. I want to say, the characters, of course, weren't thinking this out. In this movie and in real life, nobody thinks it out like this. They could just feel the strains of their emotions and try to act in a way that resolved them. It's easy to look at it outside of and in hindsight with a replay and come up with this.
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nat
Growing Tail
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Post by nat on Jan 31, 2010 1:04:16 GMT -5
I don't know if this is really related or not, but do you think is poetic the way Ginger kinda get's what she wanted. She got out before she turned 16.
Here's an idea. (if it doesn't make sense, that's because I'm just making up now.) Maybe Ginger was just afraid of growing up. Not really wanting to go with B, just wanting to avoid adulthood? It put's a different spin on things if you take away the sisterly bond aspect. Make's her seam more like a sociopath. Maybe she wanted Brigitte to kill herself too, because she pitied her.
Or maybe I'm rambling off stuff that doesn't make sense. ;D
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Post by Zack Flak on Jan 31, 2010 6:12:19 GMT -5
Well, I'm a little sorry that you cited this, because this would have been the one part of the deleted scenes that I really thought should have never been in the movie. It wasn't in the original script, and it came in with John Fawcett's extensive rewrite of that party scene. Fawcett was inspired in introducing more conflict between the sisters, but with those lines, he went too far. They would have damaged the film. Why? Brigitte didn't show the resentment or the fear of Ginger's temper that would have supported episodes like that in their past. In the scene with Trina, where Ginger accuses Brigitte of choosing Sam over her, Brigitte answers "No, this isn't you." That isn't something Brigitte would say when she knows it IS Ginger. If anything, the werewolfism had inflamed Ginger's latent jealousy and was trying to turn it toward violence. So, I'm sorry. That incident between them never happened. Not everything in the deleted scenes does. Touché. I always really liked that story as it spoke to Ginger's history of violent, antisocial behavior which helped to explain her easy acceptance of her transformation, but you do have a good point. Brigitte did seem to a bit intimidated of Ginger (to me anyway) but perhaps not as much as she should have been had Ginger done such things. For the most part, they seemed to get along pretty well. However, didn't you always feel a little tension there? Ginger was definitely the dominant of the two. As much as I like the deleted scenes, I suppose one can argue that none of them count for the story. This is where it gets hard to analyze films. It's so tempting to include deleted scenes, old drafts, comments by film-makers, etc. But in the end, I guess we ought to look purely at the theatrical cut, eh? Excluding such scenes, however, means Pam's actions at the party are off the table. Even without them though, she still comes off as very devoted to her children's safety. Perhaps it was her influence that instilled such strong senses of loyalty in the girls. As far as Brigitte's reaction to the slide show, it's the sexuality that I'm referring to. People think that Brigitte, appalled though she may have been, was saddened by the fact that it was only Ginger, not her, that got such attention. And Nat, you are right. Ginger got her wish, but it seems that her want for death (her own, anyway) left when her change came about. So did Brigitte's as well. In that way, they matured in some sense. The whole theme of this film seems to be loss of innocence.
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Post by lordhowl on Jan 31, 2010 12:37:52 GMT -5
Well, I'm a little sorry that you cited this, because this would have been the one part of the deleted scenes that I really thought should have never been in the movie. . . What explained it to me was that Ginger had gone insane. It wasn't her. Accepted it? On the day and night of the full moon she "accepted" it. One look at her physical appearance and I knew her brain had changed just as much. Prior to that, she was sometimes exhilarated, sometimes out of control, but frequently in anguish and afraid about it. She had become mentally ill. They didn't need to explain why Ginger accepted it, though most people in the audience wouldn't understand the nature of mental illness. Yes, in fact, right at the beginning it shows that there is tension there, and it's central to the story. It's shown when Brigitte doesn't immediately take Ginger's hand. You saw it in Brigitte's eyes. That scene is echoed in the second last line of the movie: "I'm not dying in this room with you!" They don't see eye to eye, for one thing, about that oath. There was some intimidation to it, but it doesn't totally describe it. When Brigitte had the words, she didn't have any trouble speaking up to Ginger: ("Too much blood. And I can see your gonch.") Ginger was her older sister. For siblings, who is dominant in that case is automatic. She was used to deferring to Ginger. I presumed they had always been like that. Fact is, it would have been hard for Brigitte not to be in awe of Ginger. That's hardly what I'm saying, and I think you'll understand once you know this. Most of the cuts were made to keep the film under 110 minutes. For an independent movie, there's a hardline unwritten rule that it has to be under 110 minutes. Why? Because without a proven audience, producers and distributors won't support a movie that's any longer; they're afraid, for good reason, that it signals a dull movie, or at least one that the audience might say is dull, or might even walk out on it-- and tell other people that they did. Producers and distributors don't trust their artistic judgment about a movie, they go by hard numbers. 110 minutes is a hard number. But for GS, it means lines and scenes that would have made the movie better were left on the editing floor. That's why now that it has a proven audience, I wish they'd restore some of those scenes. But . . . not those lines about Ginger's temper. Those lines threw the movie off. Unlike all the other scenes, that line was not in the original script. Fact is, they could not afford to do the party scene as Karen Walton wrote it. So, by necessity, Fawcett had to heavily rewrite those scenes. I wouldn't doubt that they re-wrote that scene 20 minutes before they shot it. So, just see deleted scenes as, "Maybe they dreamt it." What I see in Brigitte, her expressions and body language is that she's at the stage where really any idea of physical attraction and sex nauseates her. Ginger was maybe just like her ten months before. Moreover, the only attention Brigitte feels she needs is from Ginger. She's terribly afraid Ginger would "go average" on her, and she says so. In a cruel irony, Ginger goes anything but average. However, there are always deeply hidden thoughts in the brain that are drowned out in the storm of a person's thinking, and maybe jealousy would be in there, but I wouldn't expect anything that remote to be expressed in Brigitte's body language. What she wanted more than ever was for her and Brigitte to be "together forever." And we, of course, know how tragic that was.
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Post by lordhowl on Jan 31, 2010 12:56:09 GMT -5
I don't know if this is really related or not, but do you think is poetic the way Ginger kinda get's what she wanted. She got out before she turned 16. Here's an idea. (if it doesn't make sense, that's because I'm just making up now.) Maybe Ginger was just afraid of growing up. Not really wanting to go with B, just wanting to avoid adulthood? It put's a different spin on things if you take away the sisterly bond aspect. Make's her seam more like a sociopath. Maybe she wanted Brigitte to kill herself too, because she pitied her. Or maybe I'm rambling off stuff that doesn't make sense. ;D lol, though you can't take the sisterly bond away from this movie, it would be true to say that the sisters were very cynical of adult bonds. In other words, fear of becoming an adult was part of it. So, you're right. And that's a key part of the poetry to the movie.
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Post by lordhowl on Feb 1, 2010 13:45:44 GMT -5
This is where I disagree, I don't find it a big "fuck you". You just have not looked far enough down the lane. When the showdown with destiny is at hand, things get interesting, then the time where you can give the "Big Fuck You" to destiny and predetermination comes, and you can go your own way. Of course, I agree, that would just suck. But if the protagonist learns that this is what he will do, he has a chance to change his destiny, no? That is what I mean. Agreed. No, that's not predestination. Predestination is literally, you don't have a choice, even if you think you do and even if you have foreknowledge. Something, God, has written out exactly what you will do, and even if it tells you what you are going to do, and you hate the whole idea at the time, by the time the action is taken, it's something that you would want to do or feel that you have to do. Because the God also creates that in you. This where I found the ending so funny. The spirit running the GS universe thought it had the sisters predetermined, but they weren't ! It wasn't as in charge as it thought. Makes sense in a pagan universe, where a god has something determined, and maybe thinks its fully in control, but another comes along and messes with them. This might be scene as comparable to a teenagers' rebellion. Connecting it to the first one, the powers of nature want Brigitte to break her childhood bond with Ginger. She says, fuck you. Either that, or the spirit that delivered the prophecy was simply lying or full of shit. Maybe it was disinformation from another god.
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Post by lordhowl on Feb 3, 2010 23:05:47 GMT -5
I really don't know. I alway's felt that the girls were not so much mature, but unburdened by an over-abundance of hormones. If they were more mature they'd probably have realized they didn't really want to die. Just a thought. Sorry, I overlooked this post, Nat. The girls weren't mature, but they were maturing, knew that maturity was coming, and didn't like what they saw about it. Getting their period was a sign of maturity they dreaded. As I mentioned, they definitely did not want to die, but showing each other a cavalier attitude about death, I think, was meant to impress one another. One took it seriously because the other did and vice versa. Meanwhile, the pact, which had always been the rock-solid sign of their bond, was calling on them to take some kind of action. When they made the pact, the action it called for was a lifetime away for them. If they didn't take action, they feared they would never take their previous bond seriously again, which would seriously damage their efforts to ever take an adult bond between them seriously. So, they might have attempted suicide just to prove to each other the seriousness of their bond, and give a fuck you to everyone outside of it. It didn't look like Brigitte was going to go along, though. No, they weren't mature, and Brigitte was at a stage where the entire idea of sex or even attraction was revolting to her. Never having experienced it, she really did not understand it. Ginger had probably been in the same place just months before. I don't think Ginger would have attempted suicide or run away without Brigitte. But Ginger would have considered the bond between them dissolved.
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anakhe
Human
You said you'd die with me, because you had nothing better to do...
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Post by anakhe on Feb 5, 2010 0:28:52 GMT -5
Any ideas as to what Ginger would have done if she didn't have a sister?
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Post by lordhowl on Feb 5, 2010 1:03:08 GMT -5
Any ideas as to what Ginger would have done if she didn't have a sister? If she had been bitten and didn't have Brigitte? I think in the week before the full moon, Ginger would have disappeared, gone feral, and lived off dogs, cats, and maybe a toddler until the final change. In fact, it's in my story that this the usual pattern, and Ginger was exceptional. I think it was her bond Brigitte that kept her thinking like a human being as long as she did.
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nat
Growing Tail
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Post by nat on Feb 5, 2010 5:18:39 GMT -5
Any ideas as to what Ginger would have done if she didn't have a sister? Probably be normal. If she had no one to share her passion with, she'd probably be a normal girl. Shy and probably without many if any friends. But it's anybody's guess. If you want a sarcastic answer: Nothing. There wouldn't be a movie.
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Post by lordhowl on Feb 11, 2010 21:41:23 GMT -5
I don't know if this is really related or not, but do you think is poetic the way Ginger kinda get's what she wanted. She got out before she turned 16. I forgot to answer this part of it. I honestly think that escaping with Brigitte from the "horrible" world oppressing them was what Ginger wanted. I say it as "horrible" because to her she was thinking in those dramatic terms. And, fifteen year olds tend to think like that. I mean even on the night of the full moon, where she decides humanity is for lamers, she still wanted Brigitte to come with her, and is crushed when she doesn't. But (in the school hallway) even though she was homicidal by that point she does not kill Brigitte. She hurts her, but not very much, and she finds an indirect way to take out her anger. It would have been easy to bite Brigitte force her to accept becoming a werewolf, but instead Ginger respected Brigitte's wishes.What was so poetic about it was that they both wanted to repair the bond so badly, and they both failed so badly. Ginger was out by sixteen, but not with Brigitte, and "together forever" was the point of taking the whole oath. So, the only thing I think was wrong with Ginger: she simply did not have a mature concept of devotion. It couldn't transcend the blood oath that they took-- as children, the one that called for them to escape or die long in the future (in a child's thinking). Whereas Brigitte was doing things that really showed mature devotion to her sister, all Ginger could think of doing was somehow renewing the blood oath-- in a way that was much more drastic. My worst thought is: if it weren't for the werewolf attack, Ginger might have outgrown this "tragic flaw." It really turns classic tragedy on its ear.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Feb 11, 2010 22:35:30 GMT -5
yeah.
But in happy new, I got 200 post's!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by lordhowl on Feb 11, 2010 23:06:20 GMT -5
yeah. But in happy new, I got 200 post's!! ;D ;D ;D ;D You're growing the tail. Congratulations.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Feb 11, 2010 23:10:04 GMT -5
Now I can't sit anymore. Drat.
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Post by jesusonabicycle on Aug 28, 2010 17:41:43 GMT -5
You all have wonderful theories as to the mental state of Ginger. I think many of these could be possible. I do doubt that abuse had occurred at any point. The idea that someone very close to her had died could work and Ginger's artistic mind could fit in here as well. However, I would mix in her artistic soul theory with the death of a friend or even say, perhaps when she was younger her mom and dad had different jobs and she had to be put in a day-care and couldn't spend much time with her parents. Also, maybe this day-care did not give Ginger the recognition she needed, and her craving for attention was neglected for a large portion of her life so she wanted to turn away from the world as she saw it when she was a child.
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nat
Growing Tail
Posts: 365
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Post by nat on Aug 29, 2010 14:16:28 GMT -5
You all have wonderful theories as to the mental state of Ginger. I think many of these could be possible. I do doubt that abuse had occurred at any point. The idea that someone very close to her had died could work and Ginger's artistic mind could fit in here as well. However, I would mix in her artistic soul theory with the death of a friend or even say, perhaps when she was younger her mom and dad had different jobs and she had to be put in a day-care and couldn't spend much time with her parents. Also, maybe this day-care did not give Ginger the recognition she needed, and her craving for attention was neglected for a large portion of her life so she wanted to turn away from the world as she saw it when she was a child. But normal kids can go to daycare and turn out fine most of the time. I knew a few people who barely saw any of their parents and they were pretty normal. They got into heavy drug usage, but they were pleasant enough.
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Post by jesusonabicycle on Aug 29, 2010 14:59:43 GMT -5
You all have wonderful theories as to the mental state of Ginger. I think many of these could be possible. I do doubt that abuse had occurred at any point. The idea that someone very close to her had died could work and Ginger's artistic mind could fit in here as well. However, I would mix in her artistic soul theory with the death of a friend or even say, perhaps when she was younger her mom and dad had different jobs and she had to be put in a day-care and couldn't spend much time with her parents. Also, maybe this day-care did not give Ginger the recognition she needed, and her craving for attention was neglected for a large portion of her life so she wanted to turn away from the world as she saw it when she was a child. But normal kids can go to daycare and turn out fine most of the time. I knew a few people who barely saw any of their parents and they were pretty normal. They got into heavy drug usage, but they were pleasant enough. Perhaps they had a horrible baby-sitter then. That could be possible.
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Post by jesusonabicycle on Aug 29, 2010 17:17:58 GMT -5
Also, I remember the scene where they are burying Trina and Ginger says something like... "Remember he used to make you eat worms before you came in here" I don't think that is the exact quote, but she is referring to some one, I do not know who but it could perhaps be a cruel and terrible baby-sitter.
I also know that you can turn out fine at Day-Care Nat like many other kids have, but I also have a friend who I sort of split ways with in the recent years but we are not hostile to each other in any way. I guess you could say we have a mutual-respect. He went to day-care and had only lived with his mom since his parents were divorced. This is not the whole story because a whole lot of other things are in this but they are personal things that I'd rather not share. He did not turn out so well, had twisted thoughts and he's done some terrible things and has gone through a not-so-happy life which is too bad because he really is a good person at heart. I am not saying Day-Care is the whole piece of it, but it does play a part in the idea that the people looking over the children may not give enough attention and discipline to the people that need it.
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Post by lordhowl on Aug 30, 2010 0:17:46 GMT -5
Also, I remember the scene where they are burying Trina and Ginger says something like... "Remember he used to make you eat worms before you came in here" I don't think that is the exact quote, but she is referring to some one, I do not know who but it could perhaps be a cruel and terrible baby-sitter. I also know that you can turn out fine at Day-Care Nat like many other kids have, but I also have a friend who I sort of split ways with in the recent years but we are not hostile to each other in any way. I guess you could say we have a mutual-respect. He went to day-care and had only lived with his mom since his parents were divorced. This is not the whole story because a whole lot of other things are in this but they are personal things that I'd rather not share. He did not turn out so well, had twisted thoughts and he's done some terrible things and has gone through a not-so-happy life which is too bad because he really is a good person at heart. I am not saying Day-Care is the whole piece of it, but it does play a part in the idea that the people looking over the children may not give enough attention and discipline to the people that need it. lol. First, man, you have that line wrong: it's "Remember when I used to make you eat them just to come in here?" Not just a funny line, but it raises so many questions, and tells you so much. First, was it then that Ginger preferred to play alone? That she would have been a solitary child except for Brigitte? The other thing it says is that Brigitte ate worms to be with Ginger. As a child, she was that enthralled with her sister. Second, except by pure imagination, it's hard to interpret day care scars into the subtext here. The only suggestion of it, and I think its in there for other reasons, is the fact that Ginger is waylaid on a playground. I think the symbolism there more had to do with her getting her period, and adolescence stealing her away from childhood. I thought about the trauma and abuse angle and wrote about it here myself. Finally, though, I've concluded there wasn't that much wrong with Ginger. Nothing that couldn't be explained without trauma or abuse. Not everyone is going to live in the suburbs and go to high school and be happy with it, even when they are well fed, well-treated and free of trauma. Moreover, fifteen is not known to be an easy age for any girl, especially when you're more than two years late getting your period, which must have isolated them from the rest of the girls anyway. Take a snap shot of any girl that age at the wrong time then and you'd get the idea that she'd spend the rest of her life in therapy. If you could point to one thing that was damaging to them, I think it was the damned pact. That was the paradox of it. It expressed their love and drew them closer, but it was bringing them down, and Brigitte was right about it. Otherwise, JOAB, I would argue that Ginger's childhood (after they got that worm-eating thing straightened out) was likely rather happy. I really think her and Brigitte were so happy together. It was actually the prospect of becoming adults and, worse, turning into Pamela that depressed both of them. How does a happy childhood turning into an uncertain adult hood look? I think it looks like the Fitzgerald sisters. That's why Ginger was so distressed to be getting her period. She didn't want to grow up and was anxious about the person she would turn into. As it turns out, for good reason. And of course, that's symbolized by the werewolfism. What if adolescence turns you into something ugly and mean? That's the nightmare horror story of Ginger Snaps. Now, it could be trauma, but for me, it really ruins some of the better points of the movie if Ginger's and Brigitte's discontent with suburbia and tension with their mom is explained in terms of abnormal psychology.
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Post by Grim The Weird on Aug 30, 2010 1:51:18 GMT -5
jesusonabicycle loool i like the name haha oh and she was refearing to ginger making her eat worms "remember when i made you eat them just to get in here" any ways welcome to our hapy club new people will bring life back to this site hope u love it here
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