Boehlke
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Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
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Post by Boehlke on Aug 30, 2006 8:05:32 GMT -5
In another thread a "history" discussion got started, and since I find the subject very interesting, and I'm afraid that that discussion "may" take too much of that other tread. I decided to make a new thread where we all can continue to discuss the historical presences in the movie. So share you're personal perception of the movies historical content, and what messages you think is coming forth in th movie. The discussion started as following: i saw the annoying downloaded version of GSIII earlier. Stupid audio/video delay. crappy video codec installed. So.. according to the preacher, all these werewolves attacking the fort and crap is because of the sin the guy with the werewolf son comitted (that is, marrying an indian girl and having a 'mongrel' child). But the Indian hunter talks about the disease (i assume he meant the whole werewolf curse) coming from when europeans arrived. in the end I saw this movie more of in a historical context as one sees how all the indians that appeared got killed (as well as everyone else except the sisters of course) and I thought that it was portraying how the early european settlers brought with them this wickedness that was to plague the indians (as seen at the start with the bloodied tent in an abandoned indian camp). I know the movie is trying to show how this curse began as it is the prequel to GS1 but i thought that the movie was made because of the above conclusion (and yes, the movie directors probably did not intend to show it in a way that gets conclusions like mine,IMO). So what im trying to say if you still dont get me is, that the werewolf curse symbolizes the death and destruction brought about from when the great nations of europe set forth across the pond and came to the new world. I recognize what you're saying, It's a great way of seeing it I think. These things you talk about, John, really brings depth in to the movie. I never thought about this.. It's like Ginger and Brigitte is some kind of "Jesus" figure then, they get punished for the sins of everyone.. I mean since they are reincarnated, only to suffer more pain. (I do in no way intend to compare Ginger and "B" with some religious stuff, I simply draw a line) Yes, in the movie, a view held especially by the firebrand preacher, where marriages between europeans and indians are suppose to be bad. the son of the head guy of the fort being bitten and turning into a werewolf just reinforced that view regarding sinful 'half-breeds' or 'mongrels'. Also, in the part where Ginger and the hunter start kissing, i thought - and this is only my specualtion, everything is - that because of that happening, now she too has committed a sinful act and will be cursed (yes i know, she was already bitten by the child anyway, but that happening just backs the point about the views held by the other people at the fort towards the main guy's marriage to an indian woman). Also, where the guy (uh the army guy, the one who reminds me of Mr Sharpe from Sharpe - 19th century napoleonic series) kicks out Milo, the half-indian boy out of the fort because again, of the dislike of them and indians. the same guy as above also talks of 'getting you, someday' both to the hunter and Milo therefore showing that they associate the bad situation with the indians (in addition to the general percieved white-indian relations in the 19th century of course). It's all new thoughts for my mind to devour, and a very interesting theme indeed. I have never looked as deeply into the story as you have, and even though as you say this is only you're speculations, it seems very believable due to the actual " racial problems" at that period of time. This also makes it very interesting when having in mind that Ginger and Brigitte is somehow bound with Indian prophecies within all of this.
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Aug 30, 2006 8:47:12 GMT -5
Also I would like to add that the Hunter is by far the coolest person in the movie. He should have been given more talking parts and developed him way way more.
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Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
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Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
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Post by Boehlke on Aug 30, 2006 10:22:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree. come to think of it. Did not he say he knew the day that he would meet brigitte would come all his life? The link between the Fitzgerald's and the Indians really intrigues me. The movie leaves tonns of questions rather than answering those who already are.. And speaking of the Hunter, and developing him. I bet there could be another genious prequel that mainly is around him and the link to the Fitzgerald's. lol, another idea to another film.. I get the feeling I always do that... pardon me. in the end I saw this movie more of in a historical context as one sees how all the indians that appeared got killed (as well as everyone else except the sisters of course) and I thought that it was portraying how the early european settlers brought with them this wickedness that was to plague the indians (as seen at the start with the bloodied tent in an abandoned indian camp). I know the movie is trying to show how this curse began as it is the prequel to GS1 but i thought that the movie was made because of the above conclusion (and yes, the movie directors probably did not intend to show it in a way that gets conclusions like mine,IMO). As you say the movie is supposed to show how the curse began, and as I can see, there is no other way the movie explains that then the way you're conclusions go.. I had the feeling of not being any wiser on that matter after watching the movie... (hope I have not missed some major points, cuz then there is somethin really wrong with the version I have seen)
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RuaDragon
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Post by RuaDragon on Aug 30, 2006 11:37:41 GMT -5
I think they should make a series where B meets the reincarnated Hunter.
But anyway, I heard an interesting theory that in each movie the curse serves to symbolize something, but its different in earch movie. Whether this was intentional or unitentional, it seems to be true. I think you've just hit on what it Symbolizes in GS3.
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Sam
Pack Leader
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Post by Sam on Aug 30, 2006 11:43:43 GMT -5
that's interesting...never thought of that.
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Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
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Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
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Post by Boehlke on Aug 30, 2006 11:47:28 GMT -5
wow, I really hope this is true!
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Aug 30, 2006 23:29:44 GMT -5
Also, Boelhke mentioned about the link between the fitzgerald sisters and the indian prophecy.. about a red and a black and the curse.
Yes, the hunter mentions that he has known this all his life that they (the sisters) would come. And this reminds me of something probably unrelated to the movie and or what they were trying to get at but.. This depiction of the Indians having the legend of the windago and the red and the black and that they knew of their coming to them in the future seems to me very similar to the one the Aztecs believed. okay, not exactly having to do with werewolves BUT, the Aztecs also prophesied just before the Spaniards landed and fuckin massacred them, that 'men would come from the east (i.e. direction towards europe), I cant exactly remember anything other than that. And so the spanish DID arrive shortly and brought destruction and death to the Aztecs.
My point about comparing this to the Aztec legend is because of its similarity. I dont know of any north american indian prophecies myself with the same idea. But i just maybe one of the people who made the movie knew of this Aztec legend and this he/she decided to incorporate into the GS theme and make a different version of it to suit the werewolf story. But the core ideas remain the same which is people coming from europe and bringing death (basically the indians prophesizing their own extinction).
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Aug 30, 2006 23:35:09 GMT -5
I think they should make a series where B meets the reincarnated Hunter. But anyway, I heard an interesting theory that in each movie the curse serves to symbolize something, but its different in earch movie. Whether this was intentional or unitentional, it seems to be true. I think you've just hit on what it Symbolizes in GS3. If a crappy remake of GSIII is done in the distant future, I will play as the hunter or at least, get a lesser role of an indian extra or the old woman..
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Dawley
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Annoying the world, one message board at a time
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Post by Dawley on Aug 31, 2006 0:04:12 GMT -5
You... stay away from my part.
I mean it.
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Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
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Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
Posts: 1,505
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Post by Boehlke on Aug 31, 2006 6:27:07 GMT -5
Also, Boelhke mentioned about the link between the fitzgerald sisters and the indian prophecy.. about a red and a black and the curse. Yes, the hunter mentions that he has known this all his life that they (the sisters) would come. And this reminds me of something probably unrelated to the movie and or what they were trying to get at but.. This depiction of the Indians having the legend of the windago and the red and the black and that they knew of their coming to them in the future seems to me very similar to the one the Aztecs believed. okay, not exactly having to do with werewolves BUT, the Aztecs also prophesied just before the Spaniards landed and fuckin massacred them, that 'men would come from the east (i.e. direction towards europe), I cant exactly remember anything other than that. And so the spanish DID arrive shortly and brought destruction and death to the Aztecs. My point about comparing this to the Aztec legend is because of its similarity. I dont know of any north american indian prophecies myself with the same idea. But i just maybe one of the people who made the movie knew of this Aztec legend and this he/she decided to incorporate into the GS theme and make a different version of it to suit the werewolf story. But the core ideas remain the same which is people coming from europe and bringing death (basically the indians prophesizing their own extinction). Yes, I totally agree, and see the points you've made, my lack of knowledge of the north american indian lore is really annoying me greatly, think I'll have to do further studies on this matter. It's very interesting what you mention about windago and that the Aztec's prophesied the coming of "white" men. This may have something to do with the sisters, but then the question of what emerges, they just happened to be there as some "main" victims of the curse that the "white men" brought upon themselves and the indians? If the sisters had chosen another way, eh.. not chosen, but realized that they had to kill the boy before he bit Ginger earlier, and indeed killed him, would that bring an end to the curse, and the oppression of the indians? I somehow think that's some of the matter with the curse, but at the same time, I find no logic explanation of why this would be...
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Aug 31, 2006 13:39:13 GMT -5
You... stay away from my part. I mean it. you mean the hunter, some extra or the old woman?
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Aug 31, 2006 13:47:44 GMT -5
Boelhke i think you're the only one who seems to give a damn anyway yes, it is this.. the Aztec prophecy was that 'the feathered serpent will come from the east and destroy the Empire'.. the feathered serpent being Quetzalcoatl (pronounced as ket-zal-kwatil) is one of the Aztec gods and it was prophesied that he would return again and the date WHICH coincidentally coincides with the arrival of the Spaniards and Hernan Cortez (the main man). the Aztecs and their emperor upon seeing their arrival, believed Cortez to be Quetzalcoatl because quetzalcoatl is described as having a pale complexion. therefore it is funnily a good thing for Cortez and his men because they are percieved as gods. Also, the Aztecs have never seen horses, huge ass galleon boats, steel armor or guns before and all this just added to their belief that these men were infact divine beings.. At the end of the day, the Aztecs were no match, totally alien to deal against cavalry and guns. And of course the smallpox that the spanish brought which annihilated the Aztec civilization.
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john
Dog Eater
Posts: 630
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Post by john on Aug 31, 2006 13:55:42 GMT -5
Also, Boelhke mentioned about the link between the fitzgerald sisters and the indian prophecy.. about a red and a black and the curse. Yes, the hunter mentions that he has known this all his life that they (the sisters) would come. And this reminds me of something probably unrelated to the movie and or what they were trying to get at but.. This depiction of the Indians having the legend of the windago and the red and the black and that they knew of their coming to them in the future seems to me very similar to the one the Aztecs believed. okay, not exactly having to do with werewolves BUT, the Aztecs also prophesied just before the Spaniards landed and fuckin massacred them, that 'men would come from the east (i.e. direction towards europe), I cant exactly remember anything other than that. And so the spanish DID arrive shortly and brought destruction and death to the Aztecs. My point about comparing this to the Aztec legend is because of its similarity. I dont know of any north american indian prophecies myself with the same idea. But i just maybe one of the people who made the movie knew of this Aztec legend and this he/she decided to incorporate into the GS theme and make a different version of it to suit the werewolf story. But the core ideas remain the same which is people coming from europe and bringing death (basically the indians prophesizing their own extinction). Yes, I totally agree, and see the points you've made, my lack of knowledge of the north american indian lore is really annoying me greatly, think I'll have to do further studies on this matter. It's very interesting what you mention about windago and that the Aztec's prophesied the coming of "white" men. This may have something to do with the sisters, but then the question of what emerges, they just happened to be there as some "main" victims of the curse that the "white men" brought upon themselves and the indians? If the sisters had chosen another way, eh.. not chosen, but realized that they had to kill the boy before he bit Ginger earlier, and indeed killed him, would that bring an end to the curse, and the oppression of the indians? I somehow think that's some of the matter with the curse, but at the same time, I find no logic explanation of why this would be... Yes i find that part a bit hazy and confusing. so like if they did kill the boy before he himself sunk his nasty fangs into ginger's shoulder and gave her the curse, then it what? it will definitely end, the curse? Also, it didnt explain clearly enough to me anyway about the legend told by the indian guy.
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Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
2nd in command
Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
Posts: 1,505
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Post by Boehlke on Aug 31, 2006 16:09:20 GMT -5
Yes i find that part a bit hazy and confusing. so like if they did kill the boy before he himself sunk his nasty fangs into ginger's shoulder and gave her the curse, then it what? it will definitely end, the curse? Also, it didnt explain clearly enough to me anyway about the legend told by the indian guy. Indeed, this is questions I very much would like answered. Too bad, as it is to this day, we got no ways of really knowing much of this... And yes, I do care, I find this matter extremely interesting though I mostly have commented you're views. I really admire you're insight and way to see things.
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Sept 1, 2006 14:50:19 GMT -5
what the heck's a windago anyway? must go find out..
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john
Dog Eater
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Post by john on Sept 1, 2006 15:26:23 GMT -5
oh right.. a windago is a creature in Algonquin indian mythology. the windago preys on people in the forest especially during winter. they live to kill. theres even one account of an indian man hanged after confessing that he desired to eat his sister's flesh. His body was then burnt including all the bones, everything had to vanish into thin air so that the windago spirit will not come back. So now we see where the movie makers got their idea from..
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Boehlke
Alpha Wolf
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Wild things in the North Eastern Valley
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Post by Boehlke on Sept 2, 2006 5:49:46 GMT -5
yeah, cool.
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Josey
Alpha Wolf
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Post by Josey on Sept 2, 2006 22:46:37 GMT -5
If you get to be the Hunter, I wanna be Ginger lol I call Gingers part
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RuaDragon
Snapped
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Post by RuaDragon on Sept 3, 2006 0:21:12 GMT -5
Holy shit! Look at this:
"Wetiko (wet-ee-ko) is a Native American term for what they felt as the amoral and predatory behavior of the Europeans: that they consumed others' lands lives by physical or economic enslavement. The term probably derives from the Algonquian root word "witiku", though the term's exact spelling varies throughout the tribes and the times: wendigo, windego, wetiko, windago, windikouk, and so on.
Wetiko (the word for cannibal in the Cree language) was also a name given to Bigfoot/Sasqatch by the Cree Indians"
From Wikipedia
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john
Dog Eater
Posts: 630
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Post by john on Sept 3, 2006 7:10:00 GMT -5
wow that is very interesting. thanks for sharing that info Ruadragon! Okay, this just goes to say that what we have found backs up my speculation that, THAT was indeed the hidden message in GSIII (yes, even if the guys who made it did not intend to do this).
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